Are Pakistani Youth Giving Up Islam?
- A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion ~ Francis Bacon
By Hamza Khan Yousafzai
Islamabad: A handful of Pakistani Muslim youths are beginning to question the existence of God and in the process giving up Islam to become atheists. Although affecting a small number of people, the trend seems to be telling of pressures that the image of militant Islam has had on them.
A Facebook group has been floated for Pakistan’s agnostics and atheists by Hazrat NaKhuda, a young computer programmer and a former Pakistani Muslim. In a thread started on the discussion board on “How did you become an atheist”, Hazrat writes,
“I used to be a practicing Muslim. I used to live in Saudi Arabia. I have done two Hajs and countless Umrahs. Used to pray five times a day. When I turned 17-18, I realized that the only reason I was a Muslim was because my parents were Muslims”.
Ahmed Zaidi , another member, posted on the discussion board, “I’m an agnostic simply because I see little or no evidence for the existence of God. Some time ago I decided that I’d never believe anything unless it has a firm basis in reason and as far as I know (and I admit I know very little and that there’s much to be learnt), there’s little or no evidence for the existence of God.”
The group, which is open strictly to members, has among its members young Pakistani students studying in New York University, Oxford University and even Lahore University of Management Sciences.
Another student, Saeed Ahmad , who used to be a “practicing Ahmedi Muslim”, started questioning his beliefs at the age of 17. ”I don’t think there is any more detail to be added,” he posted on the Facebook community for Pakistan’s atheists and agnostics.
Nawab Zia wrote that the moot question is not “how did you become an atheist” but “how did you become a believer”. He wrote, ”I was a born atheist like every human being until my parents corrupted me with faith. Every child is born free and pure”
Ali Rana, who admired Islamic preacher Zakir Naik and had negative sentiments towards author Salman Rushdie, has had a change of heart too. He now thinks Naik is an “idiot” and Rushdie a genius.
There are other threads on how the members “wasted” their years.
All this is very disheartening to see, as the very essence of Islam is ‘submission’ and submission is equivalent to faith. We cannot ‘prove’ the existence of God but countless signs around us indicate the existence of a higher power who IS controlling everything, this world and all that is beyond. Instead of feeling lucky for being born into Muslim families, these people are questioning how that can be reason enough to follow the Islamic faith. Instead of acquiring knowledge in search of the truth, these people are giving up the belief in God altogether.
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An important topic to talk about. Good write-up, informative without getting too biased.
"A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion ~ Francis Bacon"
What an apt quote. If only these newly converted atheists would delve deeper into philosophy will they realize how the universe cannot even function self-exist without a God….
Well, I wouldn't say the article wasn't biased. The ending especially wasn't impartial at all. Special emphasis on the picture used and the quote added. Though it is claimed by believers that Atheists leave religion because they don't study their religion enough, I'd say the contrary is the actual reality. So much so that even the believers are unaware as to what Atheism means, as shown by the picture.
Atheism is a simple state of mind which declares that there is not enough evidence for the existence of god(s) hence belief in he/she/it can't be established until enough conclusive and empirical evidence has been provided. On the other hand, it does not declare what is so subtly being applied by the picture embedded along with this post.
Wont get into big discussions, i agree with wht u say abt the quote, but tht is whts being tested, Blind Faith……but thn thr r many proofs for me to stick with a religion.
A very, very important and alarming topic. And a very simple, unbiased read. Kudos to the author. I hope this matter is given enough importance by the parties concerned and is dealth with in the most simplistic and effective way ever.
Yes, the final paragraph wasn't partial at all!
And how do you propose this matter should be dealt with? Many have suggested killing these "apostates". Do you concur with that view?
I only hope that you were being satirical in that comment, because if you weren't, that would only prove how religion, whether directly or indirectly, leads to people becoming prejudiced against those with different ideologies as their own and is a major cause for social injustices. Whatever a person wishes to believe, or not believe, is his or her own choice and no one has the right to state otherwise. If these people aren't happy with Islam, and wish to become Atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, whatever, it's their choice entirely since it's their life. No one should have the right to interfere in that.
I can only hope that you were being satirical in your comment. Else, it will only prove that religion, whether directly or indirectly, leads to people becoming prejudiced against those who harbor ideologies contrary or different than their own and makes way for social injustices.
Religion, or lack there of, is a completely personal matter. If these people are not comfortable with being Muslims then they have all the right to denounce it. That is simply because it is THEIR life and hence THEIR decisions. They can live their lives however way they please and no one has any right in interfering with that. People should not use religion to persecute others. Keep religion to thy own self. I meant that generally, not personally.
Okay so that was clearly a double-post. Sorry about that! I couldn't find the first post after I had made it but now it's visible.
I'm such a fool. Sorry I couldn't see that you were being satirical =p Just read your comment below and realized.
"You'll find Allah if you look for Him." so true. Religion can be beautiful if we make it so.
Would you care to wonder why not even a single Muslim was ever able to make it so though? Can you name a single 'good' Islam or allah has done for humanity? None!
i do not think our youth is giving up islam… these are few ppl only who behave like that….
Actually, ironically enough, surveys show atheists tend to be the most well read on issues of religion and faith:
http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-los-angeles/su…
Additionally, irreligion is faster growing than Islam in the United States:
http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2006/03/atheis…
But, we can both agree these surveys don't mean atheism is right and Islam is wrong. Atheism simply states that there is no convincing proof for god, and it's right; there isn't any convincing proof for god.
However, I would like to see one of you produce an ontological proof for your deity, in this case, Allah. A successful ontological proof would be one that could not be used to also produce a fallacy. It hasn't been done in thousands of years (St. Francis of Assisi confessed to its impossibility), and I figure it won't be done now. Nonetheless, I am open to your arguments. Additionally, we can argue based upon one of the three schools of Sunni kalam, Ashari, Athari, or Maturidi, or on one of the schools of ithna'Ashariyya Shi'a Islam, such as the Akhbari, Usuli, or Shaykhi. Let me know what you prefer.
Allah means the almighty, the one God, the One higher power. If you follow religion as defined by the haddith or the endless traditions and customs, it's understandable that it appears illogical. If you believe in Islam as per the Quran, in its simplicity, if you understand that the rules put forward were to make life easier for man and are not impositions, it becomes easier to believe. If you study the complexities of a human body or even a single celled organism, you will ditch the theory of evolution. Something so beautiful, that functions with such synchrony has been designed by a higher order- Allah, God, or whatever it is that u you want to refer to him as. If that isn't a sign, look at the laws of physics. Granted, they exist, and nothing deviates from these laws. have you wondered why? Stop personifying God. He is an uncomparable superpower. How can you think that he doesnt exist?
you know when u read the tafsir of the Holy Quran, in many places Allah has given examples of the sun and the moon and the day and night and rain etc etc as His miracles…it is a very important belief of Islam that eventhough we cant see Allah, we can easily recognize Him through these miracles…religion is not based on seeing and believing..it is based on believing..and if that believing leads us correctly then why should we not believe?
When you have decided to 'presume' things, you can only write what you just wrote. How could you presume those guys did not do research? It is you, my friend who has not done any research at all. Had you done that, you would have other views. Let me pose a question to you, from your own religion, why do you think, every religion wants people of every other religion killed? IF you want to say Islam does not say so, you have not read it, if you believe in alternate interpretations you are a fool.
1) I never said that EACH one of them has not done any research. READ. The word's "majority".
And what if I tell you I have researched on that? And I still have the same views? It's about prospective you see. What appeals you, doesn’t appeal me. What reasons convince you, don't convince me!
2) I said until unless you don't do an in-depth analysis, religion becomes a blind faith. If you have researched and then chosen your way, good for you!
3) Yes I don't think every religion wants people from other religion to be killed. How more close minded could you get? Militant Islam is not Islam. Yes Islam mentions violence, but that violence is in some particular context. Just one example here that I'm sure you would have come across when you did your research:
(2:190-193) "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God …"
*those who fight you
*no more tumult or oppression
Mention of violence for a cause and violence when defending oneself. Anyway you can find a lot of material about this online.
4) ALSO, you said Islam wants people of other religion killed, lets see an example:
". . . Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except through justice and the law. He orders this so that you may acquire wisdom" (6:151)
Read. A Muslim can be punished by death if that’s justice.
5) Why is it that anyone who interprets this particular thing in any conflicting way to yours is a fool? Generalizing much? Or maybe you are the wisest person here and only you can give 'correct' interpretations about anything.
I'm not a religious scholar or something. I'm neither here to convince you to become a Muslim nor ridicule you for choosing to be an atheist. It's not a fight here. I'd appreciate if you think before calling anyone a fool. If you disagree with something doesn’t mean you let go of your manners.
No1 cud hv explained better
no religion permits unlawful killing of another human being…..it is the devilish desires which human beings incline to….Islam has permitted "defending" and not "attacking". read the rules and conduct of soldiers in a war set by Rasulullah (s), they very clearly state that muslims are only permitted to fight if provoked..and even then they are supposed to be the first ones to agree to a cease-fire….so if u hv read islam, u would know that its a religion of peace.
Nice to see you here, mate. Lets have fun with these closed minded turtles.
ooo …. hello there. how are you? ghar per saab kaise hien?
@Maryum Afzal. Only because those are few people, will you try to find why? It will take so little time to see the logic ant none of these religions is of any sense. Trying to prove religions would be a futile exercise. No god has ever done anything in the world. Its just a bunch of fallacies..
"The other side of the coin is that maybe you shouldn't believe until you have done all the research" … doesn't that seem to be the more logical of the two?
It's not a "handful" of Pakistani Muslims. It's becoming quite a movement…and about time, if you ask me.
Muslims tend to outrightly dismiss Atheists by saying that they don't know enough about religion, despite studies which actually prove the contrary! No convert ever woke up one sunny morning and said to himself, "You know what? I'm going to leave Islam today just for the hell of it."
I became an Atheist after an agonizing research on astronomy, cosmology, evolutionary biology, and of course, Islam. And I'm appalled by the self-gratifying notion held by theists that, "Oh, he left Islam because he didn't know anything about it."
so can u explain WHY the big bang occured? How did everything come into existence? and WHY did evryhting come into existence…
Even if one can't explain such phenomenons, and science has never claimed to, doesn't mean it gives us the right to make up our own conclusions, based on practically no evidence, about it.
There was a time where the Mayans worshiped the Sun as a god because they could not explain what it was. Science couldn't. But once research was done, it was soon figured out that the Sun is nothing but a giant fusion reactor, converting Hydrogen to Helium and so on. Just because science couldn't explain back then what the Sun was justify us to conclude, without any premise, the Sun is a god? I think not.
similarly any perception held about God could be refuted in the future! why else does the older religion always persecute the new religion, causing the new apparently 'peaceful' faith turn militaristic like the older ones and then the process keeps continuing!
Try explaining why a dead person, who is in every other way intact cannot be brought back to life. explain how people age. Explain how something as minute as the DNA has the codons that translate into who you are. Well, if you cant see these signs, its like asking a blind man to read… Prove God? On the basis of Islam? Look around you and ask how and why to everything you see. Ask yourself why you think the way you do… If you cannot explain God, you cannot explain your existence. there is no meaning to your life, there is no meaning to even reading this. 'coz all you are is your physical self that will whither away in a few years. there is no need for morals, values, order…
God exists though religion for most part is man made…
its very disturbing how the youngsters are taking the easy way out, how they prefer to think that God does not exist rather than investigate and understand that everything around them is a miracle of God…
It is also very disturbing how most elders with parochial minds stick with the foolish fact that everything that cannot be explained by science is a miracle of Allah. Tell me something; assuming that someone, or rather, something, really did create the universe, what makes you believe that it was a God named Allah? Cannot it be someone else? And what led you to the conclusion that the creator MUST be worshiped? Just because a book called the Quran says so? Give me a break. Solid facts are the only thing that can establish a concrete belief.
Moreover, just because a phenomenon cannot be explained, doesn't mean it is God's miracle. Remember: rain was inexplainable centuries ago, and most humans considered it magic. What we need is time, to be able to explain what has not yet been explained.
What if science ended up verifying the stuff religion had explained centuries ago? By your standards, does that prove that the scripture containing that truth can now be considered true? I think so. That holds true for so many facts which were considered ridiculous 1400 years ago but are now undeniable proof- courtesy of science finally obliging to what Quran said (for example the shape of the earth and moon's light not being its own but borrowed light etc).
You ask why does everything that is unexplainable has to be a miracle of God- my question is, doesn't everything that has been proven by science speak volumes of His existence and control over the universe? You gave example of the rain. Now we know that water vapor condenses to form cloud and hence rain- does religion deny this? Or does religion say that rainfall is magic? No. God made a perfect universe- many phenomenons are like clockwork (formation of clouds and hence rain for example), has science proven that clockwork was not designed by God? No. On the contrary, it has proven the words written in Quran to be true about so many other facts- facts which could not be verified or even imagined back then.
Just because we are able to explain something or understand how God had created it, doesn't mean we have disproved God. The reason people like you and I give for believing in science, does not have to conflict with our belief in Allah- the Almighty.
And how's everything? =)
couldnt agree more =)
im trying to keep an open mind and see both sides of the story but uptil now ive learnt nothing tht will err my belief in Allah…
@ali ch.
yes we believe in the orders of the Holy Quran because everything contained in it is nothing but the truth….The Holy Quran has not called rain and other such phenomena a "miracle (which in common terms means an unexplained occurrence)" instead its a blessing of Allah…..Islam has explained how the rain occurs….but the main belief is that it does not fall without the power of Allah…..please read http://islammyreligion.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/d…
the issue is that, there are many ideas that logic and science disprove that exist in religion! logic says that all humans should be treated equally! religion says that people who follow so and so faith are superior to all others and have a direct ticket to heaven! logic does not believe any of this! the point is that God's existence or non-existence doesn't justify how the nature works, because things such as the miracles of the Prophets seem illogical when you look at the acts scientifically!
Faith says all humans should be treated equally.
Get your facts corrected.
Religion says the one who is regarded higher in the eye of God is the who is pious.
The religion echoes fairness in all aspect of your life. Why do you scorn that which teaches you to be balanced?
Has it ever told you to do wrong? Has it favored the wrong? It says diligence earns its rewards and it holds true for every being on Earth regardless of their faith or ethnicity.
God's existence justifies why the nature works as it does and how it came to do so.
God is truth and truth is not ALWAYS in front of u. but this does not mean that truth does not exist
il only say what Hazrat Ali said to an athiest: "if God doesnt exist… there is no harm in me believing that He does… but what IF you are wrong?!"
could you please explain this saying?
it means that tha if God doesnt exist… than whether i belive n him or not it makes no difference coz he isnt there… "but what if you are wrong".. what if he does exist… then what are you gonna do…
wow
That statement is known as the Pascal's Wager, which states that if, say, the scenario that god doesn't exist is true then both an atheist and the believer shall meet the same end and there will be nothing after death, but if the contrary scenario is true, that a god does exist, then the believer will be saved and the atheist will face an everlasting punishment (for a finite crime, pointing to a contradiction to god's all-just attribute – but that's a debate for later).
A little known fact about the Pascal's Wager is that: It has been utterly dis-proven. The fallacy that lies with the Pascal's Wager is that it only deals with two scenarios. What if a god did exist but that god favored atheists? In that case, the atheists will survive and the believers would perish. Or, what if the Christian god were the real god? In that case, me as an atheist, and you as a Muslim, shall both perish while the Christians will survive. And the same has to be said for Thor, Zeus, Krishna, Zenu, Chuthulu, Yahveh, or what have you.
Therefore, the argument presented here, be it by Blaise Pascal or the fourth Caliph of Islam, is wrong.
I'd like to say that, it is a person who made that theory and it was dis proven by people as well. Anyhow, you can easily use COMMON SENSE to decide about the rest of the alternatives, why would a GOD favour an atheist, a person who has been constantly denying his presence?!
And the Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in the same God. The unseen one.
As for all the rest of the religions, they worship deities. What god is worthy of worshipped when itself is caged in a body of mud?!
That is just ridiculous.
Another thing is, it can't make the statement wrong anyhow. If you consider it, no matter how many alternatives the question has, the argument still stands :
What if you are wrong?
First off, I don't see the point of declaring that a person made that theory and that a person proved the fallacy in it. All arguments ever presented were presented by a person, and henceforth any fallacies pointed out in the said argument is also presented by a person, be it the same person or another.
Secondly, why would a god favor Atheists? I turn the question to you: What if god likes people who don't care about his existence and don't both him with continuous wishing and requests and hates those who do and consequently sends the worshipers to hell? What would you do in that case? Your only way of going to heaven is to not care about god's existence or only believe in his/her/its existence if empirical evidence is provided, else you go to hell; what now?
Third of all, it is your belief that Christians and Jews share the same god as Muslims. It is your belief because your scripture orders you to believe it. The problem with that is, Christians or Jews do not share the same belief as you. They consider you no better than an Atheist. Probably even worse so. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of god and in fact god himself; you don't. Different definitions of god right there. Now if it's your BELIEF that their religion got deluded, bear in mind, they think exactly the same about you. Who's right? Both parties believe themselves to be right. Hence making that claim is pointless. Only another Muslim would agree with you, no Jew, Christian or Atheist.
Fourthly, it's a really huge claim that all of the rest of the religions worship deities caged in bodies of mud. Could you give me a list of ALL the rest of the religions of this world apart from Christianity, Islam and Judaism and what they worship so that you can prove your statement? And added to that, I shall again turn your question to you: WHAT IF the deity of some very isolated African tribe was real and only believe in it would grant you access to heaven; what then?
If this proposition, known popularly as Pascal's Wager, holds any merit, then we all should accept EVERY RELIGION and no belief in god, to guarantee access to the right heaven. That, we all know is impossible since all religions preach that only the believer of that religion will go to heaven and not the non-believers; which creates social injustices and intolerance leading to persecutions which I shan't mention in this comment.
The problem isn't what if I, as an Atheist is wrong, or you as a believer is wrong; it's what if I as an Atheist, am wrong, you as a believer are wrong, but a person X who believes in another deity is correct. And there are infinite number of possibility as to which person X is correct. And I say infinite because there possibilities which we haven't even encountered yet in this world.
be it different things in the religion, the essence stays the same. And that is of ONE GOD.
Are you an agnostic or an atheist? Please clarify
Amen to that
why thank you, m'lord!
I'll just say why Atheism is spreading so fast these days :
ATHEISM HELPS YOU SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT JUST BECAUSE NOTHING BOTHERS YOUR CONSCIENCE.
things bother you more when you are an atheist!
Umm For example?
try about not having anything to worry about the future?
No consequences for your actions?
Live in today and enjoy your life as it is.
?
p:s : All this argument is just in accordance with the topic. No personal prejudice =P
Its all a good world
Cheers.
Besides, I heard, you like arguments =P
I do think that an atheist might be just as bothered too, but at least as far as I am concerned, i really can't see for how long he would be bothered? Because everyone who is an atheist is so good at heart that he cares about the deteriorating state of the society so much that it doesn't let him sleep at night? Every night? Every TRUE atheist?
On the contrary, someone who calls himself a Muslim might be just as oblivious to what goes on in the world- but a TRUE Muslim? The Muslim who HAS been asked to take care of his moral self, to not do "wrong deeds" even when no one is watching?
I am not ruling out the possibility that as an atheist you might still have such an admirable character that you do actually give that much of a damn about principles- but WHY do you? What's this world if not a game then? Should cheat codes legalized?
Incentive for a Muslim to take care of his moral self – the WILL to want to be good and because God is watching.
Incentive for an atheist to take care of his moral self – possibly the WILL to want to be good but other than that, because of the security cameras?
but the fact is, why not do things out of your own heart, out of love, rather than fear! why do believers need to be bribed by ideas of 72 virgins and ideas of a heaven? do they not have the will to all of this without being bribed?
I'm curious: What is a TRUE Atheist?
Also: So what you're saying is that you need an incentive to be good, but otherwise you don't really care for humanity or this world? If you didn't fear going to hell, you'd go around killing and abusing people?
Oh and: What do you think explains an Atheist in general?
I've started thinking you like arguing with me! -_-
anyway, an atheist can plan his future if not an afterlife! and I do know atheists who plan their future keeping in mind the fact that anything could happen in the future, and I imply death! they can be aware that this life is temporary! doesn't mean they are materialistic idiots, if they do something, they do it with their hearts without expecting any return from society or any hidden, unseen being!
Not everyone is bribed by the idea of heaven or virgins. Those who are bribed are the ones that go wrong. People aren't doing this out of choice or being compelled to do so. It is a simple enough procedure. Do good and you shall be rewarded with good here and in the HEREAFTER.
People do good out of their own heart too. Because they want to be good as well. If were meant to be made to do such, we would not have been bestowed with the most important gift of all, free will.
We do it out of fear of God who watches us all as we do our daily dealings.
Take a moment out of your busy schedule and think, how can everything work in perfect order, why do humans require water or air? Why does the earth orbit around the sun? Why doesnt mars slam into jupiter? Surely, it cannot be a whole coincidence.
Dont believe in what I believe in. that is your own choice. but not everything in this universe can be of its own accord.
'People do good out of their own heart too. Because they want to be good as well. If were meant to be made to do such, we would not have been bestowed with the most important gift of all, free will.'
this does not set your religious beliefs as imperative! anyone, even an atheist can be like this!
So tell me why do you oppose Islam? Do you think its values are fake? Do you think its teachings are biased?
I do not oppose Islam or any religion! this is all for the sake of argument!
No no. I mean you oppose or let me phrase it subtly that, you do not believe in religions of any kind right?
Why?
ummm! guess what? determining whether I'm an atheist or a believer will take me ALL my life! one needs to research a lot! I am just using the knowledge I have at the moment! and don't tell me that I know nothing, because my argument is based on little knowledge at the moment and I plan to research more!
Indeed. Seek knowledge even if it takes you to China =D
BUT BUT BUT, Ali, the general state of affairs regarding religion IS a turn off, and rather than encouraging to explore, it discourages!
But But But, you should keep in mind. The human curiosity triumphs upon all.
Seekers of truth shall not be discouraged by any hurdles.
The true state of religion has been besmirched by misled followers. I urge you to explore such realms and seek the truth for yourself.
yet I find more logic in the arguments of an atheist!
The logic of being there no one? Howcome?
THAT is where you're wrong na! it is NOT an idea that God doesn't exist but simply that there is no physical proof of the existence of such a being! that it is a variable in the equation of the universe and life which does not change conditions whether it is removed or added, that it possibly does not have a role even if it exists!
Or: why do we have a an appendix which has no purpose at all in the body and can randomly one day swell and explode and kill us? Or why we have a single inlet to both eat and breathe, resulting in choking which kills hundreds each year? Or why is it that more than 50 percent of this earth is inhabitable and dangerous for human life to exist and function? Or why is it that humans’ upright posture puts much more pressure on the muscles of our lower abdominal wall than is true for quadrupeds, and as a result, we commonly rupture those muscles (producing hernias) during heavy lifting or sometimes as the result of vigorous coughing? I'm guessing these aren't coincidences either?
Knowledge is incomplete. Maybe there is some use of it after all that is yet unknown to us. For that matter are you saying, that God should have created this world like a fairytale with no diseases and crime either?
Man can make the world inhabitable wherever he chooses to make an abode. That is no excuse. Man has made the world today how it is by his own acts.
Maybe if you take time to eat and not hurry then you can not choke and die!
You can argue why some of us are born fat or thin that way too? It varies from person to person. Maybe their body structure is too fragile to support their weight.
You look at the surface only. Go deeper and you will know how perfect the designs have been! The whole human anatomy, the way we speak, the way the blood pumps, the organs, the cells. It is amazing how a human body is formed all from a sperm cell!
Haha, wah bhai tum layak ho gae…..i was abt to say the same, tht if thr werent problems, life wud be all fun. Problems doesnt mean tht thr is no God or tht God is imperfect!
sexist! ovum bhi hota hai!
Sajawal bhai, ye to nai expect kr ra tha……to say its nights, u hv to noe abt the day; to noe abt good u hv to accept bad; and so on……dont give me tht all these problems mean thr is no God or smthn, u hv to suffer to know what blessings u hv……take loadshedding for an Example, haha……u d agree to ths
Arguments bring a bit of colour into my otherwise mundane life =P
A Muslim or for that matter all other believers know that they will be answerable to someone of all the deeds that they commit. Be it a lie or murder, they will be responsible for their every action. You can bury a body in this world but you can't bury even a single word you have spoken when you are held responsible for your actions.
That is what is in the mind of a Muslim, the fear of God and the will of doing good to others and himself. A true muslim i mean.
When I say easy on the conscious, I mean, why would an atheist care about why drinking is wrong, why can't you intoxicate yourself, its perfectly normal for you to drink and enjoy life but a Muslim knows that to intoxicate yourself is to wilfully lose control over your senses and you you will not be able to make any sensible decisions.
An atheist can choose any lifestyle that his conscious seeks fit. If he thinks bribery is a nature's ploy than nothing stops him from doing that and having a good night's sleep.
Atheism seems to be a man made culture whose boundaries are different for each individual and are made according to the their preference.
it is wrong to assume every moral and ethical flaw with an atheist! drinking comes in ethics, where all an observer can say is, to each his own! as for moral flaws such as bribery, or lying, these are harmful to the well-being of a society and you can not assume that only an atheist commits it! frankly speaking, at the moment, the believers are more corrupt than the non-believers in the world! they deny each other the right to education for fear that people will question and that is one thing that a believer doesn't like! to be questioned about God because it is utter 'blasphemy'!
I expected this argument. Which is why i urge you to read my comment again. When did i say that a believer will be on a higher moral ground by default? I am saying- he has more incentive to take care of his morals.
And you are so mislead if you think believers do what they do out of fear of God, and 70 virgins and not their will. My friend, it is the WILL power that is induced into the hearts of even the most cruel and most characteristically flawed people by faith which attracts- not forces into subjugation, but attracts us to take care of the society and our own moral self.
You fail yourself by the standards with which you judge Islam.
"it is wrong to assume every moral and ethical flaw with an atheist!"
it is wrong to assume every moral and ethical flaw with a Muslim!
"moral flaws such as bribery, or lying, these are harmful to the well-being of a society and you can not assume that only an atheist commits it!" ok, but who's more likely to do it when no one is watching or when he knows he'll get away with it on this earth at least?
"the moment, the believers are more corrupt than the non-believers in the world! they deny each other the right to education for fear that people will question and that is one thing that a believer doesn't like!"
Honestly? Do you not know of a single non-believer who didn't try to keep his people on the dark? And you actually say this about the religion that brought humanity out of the dark ages because of their thirst for knowledge and scientific progress. Don't give me the arguments about how Muslims lost all that- because we know it was the invasion of Baghdad by non-believers which destroyed all that knowledge. All that knowledge wasted into the river.
"that is one thing that a believer doesn't like! to be questioned about God because it is utter 'blasphemy'!" Wrong again, incomplete knowledge. Islam never asks you to believe blindly. I dont. Blasphemy are the insults hurled at Allah or Prophet, not saying that "i am not entirely convinced by what you say". In fact Quran asks you to conduct research on the teachings of Islam- and THEN believe them. Do not believe everything you hear on TV- ask me instead.
"a believer doesn't like! to be questioned about God because it is utter 'blasphemy'!" Really? =O Go ahead question me about my God =)
your God! precisely! every human has their own God! even in the most institutionalized religion, the perception and understanding of God differ among individuals! there is one debate about whether God is within a person or without! similarly, when the Mayans worshiped the sun, I don't take it to mean that they thought the sun is God, rather that's what they perceives God to be! hence, one can not take a very personal concept and generalize it to a certain faith or belief system! even those within a single religion perceive things differently! There never can be consensus among them, hence it is better to keep one's faith and ideas about religion and God to oneself, otherwise all you will get is bloodshed and wars as has been the case for centuries! fighting over an entity whose identity is so hidden!
Asiya, what about the rest of the points i made? You shifted from all that to how to define God as if that refuted all my points.
And about the point you just made- i can defend how Islam sees God. Not the Mayans or anybody else. Don't blame our faith because somebody else's faith had them believe they should worship sun, statues, trees or clay. Because we too believe that they were misguided to believe in something that was finite and terrestrial- not just because our God said so. But because its illogical to accept their definition of God. But you think that we believe in Allah because that is how we perceive the concept of God. No. To us, throughout history, God has left signs, and in some cases scientific knowledge that prove His knowledge to be miraculous and infinite. Its not how we perceive God, its how we believe we have logical reason to believe in Him.
and THAT is where I disagree with you! nobody has ever worshiped anything finite and terrestrial! it's what they perceive God as being! which essentially means that, since God is something that none of us can express, as in what it is or who it is, therefore, we may write paragraphs and essays on Him yet still not be able to define Him! because our definition is just the next best thing not the real thing, hence worshiping a sheep, the sun, a statue doesn't exactly mean that they think that those things are God it's them expressing what they feel God might be like! there is a lot of symbolism involved in pagan worship, remember the pagans of Mecca made idols of Allah in order to express what they considered Him to be!
No Asiya, Allah was the only being they didn't make an idol of. They were familiar with the concept of Allah even before Islam, but when they made idols they didnt call any of them Allah. Islam clarified the concept of not god, to them, but of Allah. Allah and god are not the same- we say God for Allah because of the lack of a better term or translation. God can be many, Allah cannot- thats just one difference.
"nobody has ever worshiped anything finite and terrestrial!" Yes, they have- the sun which is finite, the trees and clay which are terrestrial AND finite. And they didn't just symbolize the sun as God, they believe the sun WAS a god.
" we may write paragraphs and essays on Him yet still not be able to define Him!" thats what i am trying to tell you, we are different from them, we do not interpret a concept of god as Allah, we believe we have proofs of Allah's existence, even scientific proofs that Quran is His word.
Allah was the king of their pantheon!
And Islam clarified that.
be certain of what you contradict for there is a lot that you know not.
His identity is not hidden.
It is reflected in all of His Creations.
You use the aid of science to explain the Big bang theory, what can you say of all the other things in the world?
Did science create man from a single clot of blood? Did nature design us to reproduce us as we do? Or did the first human evolve out of apes who just shot out of the sun?
I believe there is an answer to anything if you follow His way.
lol humans did not evolve out of apes; I don't know which science text you got that out of.
What explanation does science give us then?
So claims Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, Satanism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Scientology, Paganism etc. You just happen to be belong to Islam hence for you, the variable points to Islam. A person from any other religion would claim the same about their religion.
Indeed so would they! Jews, Christians and Muslims hold their faith in One God. Regardless of some differences between these three, they represent around 90% of the world's population and the similarities between them are numerous.
I am not advocating Islam at the moment here. I have just begun my argument saying that a superior being exists, which to my knowledge you refuse to believe.
Allah, Yahweh, Thor, Zeus, Apollo, Chuthulu, Krishna, Xenu, Jesus, Asgard, Flying Spaghetti Monster?
I've had discussions with Arabs here who, and clarifying that they speak and understand Arabic so don't need translations, have told me that the Quran states that posing the question: "Does god exist?" is blasphemy. Now whom should I believe?
Is their knowledge perfect? I believe not. Neither is mine.
Humans are instinctively curious. There are people who are religious fanatics, brought up in an atmosphere where all such talk is shunned and never talked of. If you want to question the existence of the Almighty, you would not be the first person to do so.
But I urge you not to question his existence but look at the other side of the coin, why do you think God does not?
First off, I pose the same question to you as I did to Ziad: What., in your opinion, is an Atheist?
Secondly, you're saying that their are believers who do good just for the sake of it and not for any reward, then how does that separate them from Atheists? The difference I see between a believer and an atheist here is that there believers, and quite a lot of them, who only do good because they know that some supernatural being might punish them, hence essentially they aren't good people at all, while at the same time, an Atheist would do a good deed to better the society and help his fellow man irregardless of any incentive. Which one of the two do you think is better?
Also, can you please list two Atheists who did evil in the name of Atheism and two examples of believers who killed in the name of god; which surprisingly god didn't stop, by the way?
An atheist is someone who believes in no God. So correct me on that accord if I am wrong.
Are you saying Muslims just do good because of the promises made to them?
Believers are given the incentive of heaven and its not even guaranteed but if God wanted them to just do good, humans would not have been bestowed with will. The mere idea of this world is :
This ground is a cultivating ground for the Hereafter
so it seems that this is just a test to see where we belong, we have been told what good would do and what bad would do. Its up to us to choose our paths. No one is forcing us. Good deeds are there to ease our conscious as well as, say its an added tuition class for preparation of the exams, to make us realize the virtues of being good.
So you believe that humans do not respond to incentives? Mankind has looked to benefit itself and has responded to incentives positively since the very start and so is the case here. You present the bit that shows you in the good light, let me ask you if a person believes he is unanswerable to anyone, what will be the extent of his wickedness if he pursues a path of hurting others?
The punishment is there to keep humans in check. To remind us that, we were born and we will die. And that we shall be held responsible for all that we do. And that not an atom's weight of evil or good shall go unnoticed.
Do you expect God to intervene in human affairs? Do you want an image of God to believe?
How many atheists do you believe exist in this world and what is the ratio of it compared to the believers?
And I think we are well aware of how easy it is to defame a religion or anyone for that matter. Brainwashing or misleading are common problems to blame. Ignorance and poverty are easily manipulated for those who want to have their way. This world was not created to be controlled by God. It is a testing ground for mankind, hence there is no need for the superior being to intervene in any matters.
Yet, I implore you to answer my questions. How came the Earth be perfected by itself? I do not as you to believe in Islam. I ask you to believe in a superior being.
For this universe and everything in it has not come to being by itself. It is the work of someone far superior to us.
an atheist believes that the possibility of there being a God is equal to that of his no being! he does not take God's existence to be a fact! and when you say that God does not need to intervene and he just sits there watching, it strengthens the opinion that he might no even be there!
And we argue that logic says He does exist (or you can say that there is greater possibility of His existence) so we have no reason to not believe. You can't impose your opinion about religion and i cant impose mine. Like i have said so many times, its not about opinion, its about facts. And science- thats your domain, right?
You base all your arguments on 2 sweeping assumptions as if they are irrefutable facts:
1) Faith is something that defies logic and is therefore entirely personal and open to individual interpretations.
Like i said earlier, we do not follow Islam blindly Sajawal. Yes all those religions claimed that they had irrefutable proof for their religion, but they were all eventually refuted and i dont think any of their teaching was proven by worldly knowledge (or scientific knowledge). I on the other hand claim (and so do all other Muslims who have done even modest research) that I have found in Quran and Hadith, information and guidelines for humans about the universe and earth that seemed illogical until just a century ago, and humanity did not have the technology to verify any of those FACTS quoted in Quran at that time. So, to me, logic says- Muslims are on to something.
To reach an end to this argument, I am waiting for SOMEONE to claim that Islam does not give humanity any reason to logically believe in Allah and His supreme knowledge.
2) Muslims follow the way Islam because they are scared to death by a Being who gives no proof for His existence.
Well, Allah does give ample proof to us- and I am not just talking about seeing His miracles in everyday objects, though that too.
You claimed "(Muslims) who only do good because they know that some supernatural being might punish them, hence essentially they aren't good people at all, while at the same time, an Atheist would do a good deed to better the society and help his fellow man irregardless of any incentive. Which one of the two do you think is better?" I think if you read this again, you yourself will find a problem with what u seem to be implying. But here's what i gotta say:
You think Muslims are incapable of doing good on their own? And atheists are superhuman beings, incorruptible? Islam doesn't force you to do anything on earth- just promises you justice will be served in the hereafter. Sajawal what could possibly be wrong with that? A Muslim is warned of Allah's court, just like the state warns you of the High-Court.. should they be abolished then? Also, Islam doesnt scare you into being good- it inspires you into that. If you studied the Quran and Hadith which elaborate the verses, it explains how we are to VALUE the blessings of God in the universe (you can call it mother nature), and all that dwells within. It asks you to not kill in cold-blood, to preserve nature, to not drink wine, to not gamble, to not indulge in adultery- and it tells you WHY to do or not do this.
So the way i see it, an atheist has APPARENTLY one reason to not be evil: to be genuinely good at heart, and genuinely seek the betterment of the society.
On the other hand, a Muslim has these reasons: 1) to be genuinely good at heart, and genuinely seek the betterment of the society, 2) because God promises he will not go unchecked if he commits a crime, 3) do good of your own, and Allah the Just, will bbe pleased. So far, I do not see a down side.
what physical proof do you have of the Hereafter? Marx said that such promises made by religions the world over are the opium of the masses!
And Marx said so, so it HAS to be true?
Once again asiya, you present another argument without refuting the so many points i made to you earlier in this thread.
"what physical proof do you have of the Hereafter?" Allah says (not these exact words but the general idea is) that I have shown u my clear signs, irrefutable logic- proved even by your science that my knowledge is supreme- that i know things that only the Creator could, and man couldn't, and so I exist. Now that my existence and supremacy have been confirmed, is it not logical to believe that which you cannot yet comprehend? That is how I make sense of it.
For all we know Asiya, in another century, we might actually find proof of existence of the conscience after death- already some progress has been made on that front. I'll see if i can find a link but its very limited a discovery for now.
Well most of atheism in the student came from lack of reading the quran in detail and search on that ..by just episode of stephen hawking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd05ZVYWg …on that theory the idea is generated among pakistani muslim students….may be u have seen it too
Gehri Baatein :p
Well I believe every Religion provides guidelines to live a moral life.
I have enough proof to stay a Muslim. There have also been doctors, astronomers, etc who agree that The Quran is God's word, with all their research. Videos on youtube.
I respect all views of people nonetheless, because, as sd by sm1 above, everyone cant be convinced with the same logic and if everyone was the same, we wud all have a common religion/be without religion.
But the best part of it all is that as far as i noe, everyone believes we are responsible for our own actions, so if ppl r becoming athiests, Muslims or Christians or anyone shudnt be bothered, because their conversion is not going to affect u in the end. What I say is u can give ur opinion but not force ppl, thts wht Islam teaches us too.
Exactly my point, thank you. Of course personally, it doesn't harm us what anyone believes. I wish people didnt have to die, i wish global warming could be reversed, i wish i had been an astronaut and i wish that people discussed Islam with us more so we can tell them what we think they're missing, or point out what they apparently fail to explain and vice versa. Convince or be convinced- that's the way to go.
And of course "there is no compulsion in religion" and therefore, no one must be subjugated into believing. Dialogue, open debate, mutual respect for the other and the other's beliefs is the only way forward.
Indeed there is no compulsion in religion.
You are free to choose the ways you want to.
But you should know, we do not believe idly neither do we follow blindly because it was as our forefathers did. We believe because we choose to and we believe because we know it to be right, by our heart and our mind.
warrior, haha, i l use ths name, whn u say by Heart, tht means thr is a blind belief, because there are some dimensions of life that are beyond human interpretation and understanding…
Intuition is not necessarily by heart. And I really don’t find any reason to call it a blind belief especially since our belief continuously proves us right time and again.
I dont have words to say anything. Allah is ummat per reham kre. yeh hamari youth kis rastey pe chal rhe hai.
Science tak yeh baat prove kr chuki ha k there is an existence of a God. To yeh jahil log kun ni mante. Big band theory sb kch prove krte hai.
Easy there. No name calling necessary.
Why are we trying to prove religion, or God, by using the Big Bang Theory as an evidence? Do we really need rational evidences to prove irrational believes that are ingrained in our very self? We do not have to weigh the relative advantages of atheism and theism to identify which one we should adopt. If we argue over these relative measures, a believer might get down to the point of saying that even our rational ideas or scientific ‘facts’ carry less weight than our believes. Do we really think that ‘scientific research’ may lead to the ‘discovery’ of God?
The point is, in fact, far more profound. Most atheists would mark this as an unfair argument, but I am convinced that the existence of God can not be perceived by a rational approach. Our faith, Islam, lays down that it is a fundamental postulate of Tauheed that the Allah is beyond the comprehension of a human mind. Therefore, using a rational approach to religion would always bring about questions to which no answers can be given.
The line is drawn at a different point, though. Allah says in the Quran that he only bestows faith (belief) upon those whom He intends to. Of course, a rational observer might come out with endless objections over this statement. But this is where the line is drawn. We BELIEVE in God without any reason or evidence, we do not need one. We do not see Him or hear Him. We do not have ANY reason but there’s a faith, that we all hold to. There’s no rational attestation of this faith rather than a confirmation from the soul. I have failed to understand why people look for rational ideas to come to the rescue of Allah; He doesn’t need them to.
So, here’s the line. I might appear foolish to those who have lost belief and clear to those who hold it. Faith, Ishq, or belief are not outcomes of Rationality or Aqal. They are two different platforms; please do not confuse them.
There’s one verse of Iqbal which sums this up:
be khatar aatish-e-namrood me kood prha ishq
aqal he mehv-e-tamasha-e-lab-e-baam abhi
In short, my fundamental point is, rationality is not the right platform for testing a faith. Perhaps, inner confirmation is.
I’d like to press further on my point in this comment.
Stephen Hawking, perhaps the most renowned physicist of the world, is also a famous atheist. He has his own ideas which he uses to challenge the existence of a God. He claims that, since, at the singularity (the point at which the fabric of space and time had just started i.e. time = 0, space = 0, in other words, the cosmological beginning of the existence of everything), all the matter and energy was locked together into essentially nothing. Since there was a finite amount of matter in the zero space (volume) singularity, the singularity behaved just like the center of a black hole. The center of a black hole has infinite density and hence warps the fabric of space time into a circle such that time becomes zero (mathematically). Hence, according to the Professor, God did not create universe because God never had time to create the universe out of the singularity!
Rationally, the professor’s thoughts carry weight, and scientific evidence regarding the properties of black holes corroborate his views (N.B: Most physicists disregard his ideas regarding this and exclaim them as ‘immature’). But for a believer, such ideas would never carry any wight, no matter what. They appear foolish, not because they may be scientifically erroneous, but because, we regard our faith to be higher than scientific principals. Its really as simple as that. We regard faith and science, as two different entities, and when asked to chose one, we take faith. Again, this point may seem crazy for those who have lost belief. Its really as simple as that, we believe in Allah not because believing in Him wins us a place in heaven, and not because it helps us understand the principals of nature, but because our souls bear witness for our faith. Again, it comes down to Ishq, and not Aqal.
If your soul doesn’t bear witness to the existence of Allah, or Islam, you may search in the realms of logic. For us, its simply this: I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (S.A.W) is a messenger of Allah. There’s nothing more to this, than sheer inside confirmation.
I think we should show respect to the other faiths. Instead of criticizing the aethiests in derogatory attitutde on the baisis that nothing just created nothing out of nothing, we should be productive in our arguments. This will only increase the resentment.
I like the fact that such issues are being addressed here at iE. I think people should start taking a serious approach towards such issue.
Its sad, I say. To have created such beings who dont even believe You exist. Well in any case, you know what they say: Allah has given us two paths and we must follow one.
I guess they follow a path of weak faith. Im turning 17, and my faith in God and His Creations is greater than, in my view, other adolescents. Atheism takes the same approach as satanism. The difference is that it does not involve any worship, but a free will.
GUYS! THERE IS ANOTHER WORLD OUT HERE AND BELIEVE ME, ITS NOT EASY TO HAVE A SEAT IN THE FRONT ROW WITHOUT A FEW HARDSHIP. If you believe that this is the only world where you must live your life to an extent, you’re wrong. Nothing comes out existing without the Creator. For example, robotics wont exist without the creators. I know its complicated, and in many cases one cannot find the true meaning of his existence, but there is always a purpose in everything. Dont lose faith just because your faith fails you. You have to keep to faith to a high extent.
P.S. I think its not affected just a small proportion of the Pakistani youth. I can see that many, though dont admit their disbelief, are involved in such activities which weakens their faith. They even question the existence of Allah. The virus is spreading! All take cover! -_-
Well most of atheism in the student came from lack of reading the quran in detail and search on that ..by just episode of stephen hawking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd05ZVYWg …on that theory the idea is generated among pakistani muslim students
hmm well!!!
Okay! Only one thing to think about for all of you?
Only 20% of world population are muslim now…that means 80% will go to hell…
95% of that 20% Muslims dont follow, and according to Islamic teaching, they will also go to Hell, (“All Muslim will go to heaven” is the weak (Zaeef) Hadith, like Quran says, “anyone who takes Interest is enemy of God”, that does not say that if you are muslim you will be set free.) so 99% population will go to hell…
and what about who did never receive Islamic preaching??? Just think about the time before 1950 when there was no internet or media!
and those who say that God is not be found rationally and claim that they have studies Quran seem me like saying Crow is white. Allah has said many times to discover him through his creations,,,and all discoveries can be done by science, not putting some mat in Forest as Mullah says…
and what I believe is that coming to Islam rationally is meaningful otherwise born Muslims are the same as Infidels…because both follow the religion of their society and parents…!!!